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Dungeons and Dragons Wiki talk:Balance Points
XPH + ToB < Wizard/Cleric It looks like you have a rather rough gradient here for the balance distinction that really matters. XPH and ToB tends to be weaker than wizards, clerics, and Frank and K stuffs. I foresee problems with users who want an XPH level of balance not knowing where to categorize. Is it an overpowered rogue or an underpowered wizard? Another layer might help avoid this problem. --Andrew Arnott (talk, ) 01:16, September 7, 2009 (UTC) :I personally would just rank the Psion with the Sorcerer and the PsyWar with the Rogue. Warblade definitely goes with Rogue. Does anyone disagree with this? (I really don't think anything I listed is better than the Rogue, and the Psion is basically a Sorcerer with a little more suck added on.) I don't want the layers to get too fine-grained is all. Surgo 01:22, September 7, 2009 (UTC) ::Here are some more classes for how I see the breakdown: ::*Monk level: Paladin, Ranger (not paired with Scout), Healer, Swashbuckler (not paired with Rogue) ::*Fighter level: Warlock, Warmage, Hexblade, Spellthief (except under specific circumstances in a spellcaster-heavy campaign), Scout, Marshal ::*Rogue level (balanced classes): Rogue, Ranger (when paired with Scout), Swashbuckler (when paired with Rogue), Warblade, Swordsage, Duskblade, Psychic Warrior, Crusader, Factotum, Dread Necromancer, Bard. A lot of Tome material, especially the base classes written up by Frank and K (though not so much their Prestige Classes, or some of the others written by other people) balance at this level, and this is where I believe true balance to be found. ::*In between Rogue and Wizard level: Sorcerer, Psion, Erudite (no spells-to-power variant), Wilder, Favored Soul, Beguiler, ::*Wizard level: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Artificer, Archivist (actually unsure about this one, might be a tier lower), Erudite (spells-to-powers variant) ::That said, I think it would be a good idea to mention that the classes that are higher tier are not powerful if you don't build them right; for example, in many campaigns I've played online, I see wizards preparing spells like Magic Missile, Scorching Ray (no metamagic), Fireball, Cone of Cold, etc. These characters would probably fit closer to the Fighter level, perhaps even below the Warmage than they would at the highest tier. --Ghostwheel 01:37, September 7, 2009 (UTC) :::I just want to underscore again, before we go any further (and before I reply to anything here), that these aren't supposed to be definite rankings of classes or even all that finely-grained; their one large purpose is to say to a prospective viewer "if your campaign includes (this Wizards thing), this article (is / is not) okay to use." Surgo 02:46, September 7, 2009 (UTC) ::::Fair enough. I'm more concerned about how these balance points apply to ratings. Do we give a bad rating to something that has a balance point in between rogue and wizard? I'd hope not if it was intended to be balanced that way. --Andrew Arnott (talk, ) 13:45, September 7, 2009 (UTC) :::::Oh, certainly not. These really shouldn't apply to how ratings work -- this is a tool for DMs. Surgo 14:11, September 7, 2009 (UTC) :::::: So where do we, as a wiki place "balanced"? Let's say there's a class that gets clerical casting (including 2 domains), d8 HD, armor/weapon proficiencies as the cleric, and has no Turn Undead; however, at first level they get a +1 luck bonus to attack and damage that rises by another 1 every 3 levels (to a max of 3), at level 7 they gain a permanent +6 enhancement bonus to str and their BAB rises to meet their character level, and at ninth level they gain a size category, +4 str, DR, etc (sound familiar?) Would this class be considered balanced when it's at the same power level as a DMM cleric? :::::: At any rate, my point is... what's balanced here? Are things that have the same/more power than the wizard level balanced? Things that have the same power as the rogue level? Or those that have the same power as the fighter level? Or is everything perhaps simply balanced according to its power level? (So clerics are balanced to the wizard power level while healers are not underpowerd, but are instead balanced to the monk power level?) --Ghostwheel 17:47, September 7, 2009 (UTC) :::::::I don't think the question of where the wiki places balance is relevant, or rather, I don't think it should be answered site-wide. Balance is something that happens in an indvidual campaign, it's not something that happens across the entire wiki on a single point. As for your example class...yeah, that class would be thrown in at "wizard" level and would fit in okay there, probably. :::::::So when a class shows up and it declares "I'm trying to be around this level", that's what I'm going to judge it as. I'm not going to try to answer the question site-wide whether there's One True Balance Point because while all my campaigns are tome campaigns, there are seriously people out there who think that the Monk is the One True Way (seriously). These people are weird and in my opinion pretty stupid, but the wiki can service their campaigns as well. No need to get more restrictive than that, is my opinion. So I guess my long-winded answer to this is "balance is campaign dependent" (which doesn't mean it can't be argued, because it totally can within where you're trying to set something down (like your arguments that some Tome caster PrCs are overpowered) but it does mean that some people are going to play at the Monk level and be at least okay). :::::::This wasn't asked or even noted but I feel like saying it too -- this is one of the multitude of reasons we have a rating committee to rate the quality of classes posted. I mean, it's pretty clear by now at this point in 3.5's life cycle that there is no function that takes in a class and decides balance (or even how well it does against monsters, really) or goodness and that's why we've got 9 pretty smart guys and gals here to do that job. Surgo 18:57, September 7, 2009 (UTC) ::::::::Some balance point metaphors. Cause I'm hungry. --Jay Freedman 19:00, September 7, 2009 (UTC) ::::::::*Vegetarian (bread and sauce.) (no use, broken) ::::::::*French Dip (all meat. no lettuce and tomato.) (over use, munchkin) ::::::::*B.L.T. (lettuce and tomato, but no meat.) (some use, fighter & paladin) ::::::::*Turkey Sandwich (good mix.) (useful, ranger & rogue) ::::::::*Everything Burger (it has it all.) (useful anytime, wizard & sorcerer) :::::::::Please avoid posting this useless nonsense here when people are trying to have a useful discussion. Surgo 19:01, September 7, 2009 (UTC) :::::::::: So judge classes based on the power level tier they're shooting for, gotcha. That sounds fair. --Ghostwheel 19:12, September 7, 2009 (UTC)